Finding Hope in the Promise of Heaven - III

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Sheila Walsh: And you're being executed beside the only person in human history who could help you. And when he recognizes that and acknowledges Jesus, Jesus says, "Today I tell you, you will be with me in paradise." He didn't say, "Now, are you going to join a synagogue? Have you read the Torah?" He asked nothing about his life. He simply says, "The fact that you've cried out and you recognize me, you will be with me in paradise." What a gift.
John Fuller: Well, that's Sheila Walsh from a previous Focus on the Family show, and she's emphasizing the grace of God as expressed through the person of Jesus Christ and His remarkable work of redemption. Sheila's perspectives are pointing to heaven, and she's going to be talking more today about how heaven impacts our lives here on earth. We're so glad you've joined us. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and I'm John Fuller. Sheila is such a good storyteller. We had to cut yesterday's conversation a bit short, but as promised, we're back with the rest of this great conversation. Last time Sheila shared about why believers experience disappointments in this life. That may be where you're at. Aren't we all asking that same question? She laid the foundation for the hope we have in Christ in eternity, but also in everyday lives here on earth as believers. Today, we're going to continue the conversation talking about heaven, and we'll cover a lot of frequently asked questions. If you missed the program last time, don't be dismayed. Contact us to get an audio copy, or you can find the entire episode on the Focus on the Family broadcast app, where you can access actually all the broadcast content. Sheila Walsh is a Grammy nominated singer, author, Bible teacher, and former television host, and brings a real heart for Jesus and the scriptures. You're going to hear that today. She's written a terrific book called The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything, and we've got that at our website. So, Jim, here's how you continued the conversation with Sheila Walsh on today's Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
Jim Daly: Now, I've got to ask this question. We're going to ask a few more, but do pets get into heaven? And I know pets are a big deal. Pets have unfortunately, in my opinion, sorry you can send me all the hate mail you want, but they've kind of taken the place of children for some people. But that is a legitimate question. So many people say, are pets going to be in heaven?
Sheila Walsh: There'll definitely be animals in heaven. We know that. We know that Christ will be on a white horse. We know that we're told that the lion will lie down with the lamb. I remember a little girl asking Billy Graham, "Do you think my dog is going to be in heaven?" And he asked her, "Would that make you happy?" And she said yes. And he said, "Then I'm pretty sure your dog will be in heaven." What a good answer. I've put in my requests that I have this Maggie, this little Yorkshire Terrier, who's just so noisy, so I think she'll be in heaven, but not bark quite so much.
Jim Daly: In the choir, maybe?
Sheila Walsh: Maybe she could be in the choir. The endless barking, but that's good.
Jim Daly: Your son's plan to get your dog, I think Belle, Isabella, into heaven, what was that about? What was Christian aiming for there?
Sheila Walsh: It was funny because he thought that if you're a human being, he knew that we could pray to God to heaven, but he wasn't quite sure what our bichon, Belle, would do. And so we'd gone to some theme park and he had a pink ticket. You had to have this pink ticket to get in. And I was going to throw it away in the park. And he was like, "No, Mom, I have a plan for this." And he brought it, and I saw it beside his bedside table, and I'm like, "Christian, you don't need that ticket anymore." He said, "Mom, it's not for me. It's for Belle." And I said, "What's it for Belle?" He said, "I'm thinking this might get her into heaven." So he actually tucked it into Belle's bed because this was her pink ticket into the great unknown.
Jim Daly: Sometimes we overcomplicate heaven. Don't you think that makes the Lord smile? A little boy's faith putting that in her little night area, her little soft, comfy sleeping spot.
Sheila Walsh: The other thing that was so sweet, one Sunday in our church, a pastor was doing a message on the rapture. And when we came home and at that point, we had three dogs, and at lunchtime Christian said, "Okay, here's the plan. You grab Belle, you grab Tink, and I'll grab Maggie." He wanted to make sure they were all covered.
Jim Daly: That's funny. Let's jump into Matthew 25, the Parable of the Talents. You mention it in the book. What does that parable, that story, tell us about heaven?
Sheila Walsh: It's interesting. You'll see it on social media. When somebody dies, they'll say, "Well done, good and faithful servant," if they're a believer.
Jim Daly: That's what I want to hear.
Sheila Walsh: And I think to myself, when did Jesus actually say that? So I found myself studying that. This is Matthew 25. But he tells this parable of a master who goes away depicting himself. He gives to one of his servants five bags of silver, one gets two and one gets one. And then he goes away and when he returns, the one who had five bags has now got ten. And Jesus says to him, "Well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of prepared." The one who had two has now got four. But here's what's interesting. He says exactly the same to him. He doesn't say, "It's not as great as ten, but nice try." No, he says, "Well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy." The one who didn't think they'd been given much buried it and did nothing. Didn't accept anything that God had given them and squandered it and it was just wasted and buried. And so what I love about that is you can look at certain like people will listen to you, Jim, and think, "What a gifted man, what a great communicator."
Jim Daly: They just need to talk to Jean to find out what's real.
Sheila Walsh: That's a whole other book. But we look at certain people within the Christian community and we think you've been given so many gifts. It's irrelevant. All that matters is what did Jesus give you? Whatever he gave you, when you use that for his kingdom, then you will hear well done, good and faithful servant.
Jim Daly: And on the flip side, sometimes people struggle with translating a parable, but that burying of the talent, be very specific about what we should be appropriately fearful about in that regard when it comes to the spiritual gifts that God gives us. If we bury what God has given us, what are we going to hear? And what does it look like?
Sheila Walsh: Yeah, it haunts me. I'm not sure how exactly to interpret that part. I've read lots of different commentaries and they all have slightly different angles on it. But yeah, you don't want to and I think too, when you bury the gift God has given you, he takes it away. Because I never feel like, oh, I'm ready for this. I'm equipped for this. I've never gone on a TV show, on a platform, on a radio interview and thought, well, here I am, Lord. No, do you know what I do every single time? I did it in the hotel this morning. I have a moment and I hold my hands up and I say, "Lord, under-catered one more time." Feeding of the five thousand, if there's five thousand men, there's nine, ten thousand people. If there's women, there's snacks people. That's not the only food on the hillside. But the only one who gave what they had was the little boy. And Jesus when he says, in I think it's Mark that tells us this detail, he says, "What do you have?" And that's all Jesus asks. So we bring our not enough and Jesus makes it more than enough.
Jim Daly: I think one of the big misconceptions just generally, Christian, non-Christian, is judgment. I mean, is that not what most people say? If God were loving, how could he be a judging God? Or if you're a Christian, how could you be a judging person? You're told not to judge. We hear that quite a bit. So these misconceptions about judging others, judgment, you reserved an entire chapter in the book about the rewards we'll receive in heaven. Tell us about what that looks like, the judgment component and then the rewards that we receive in heaven.
Sheila Walsh: Well, we know that every believer will never stand before the great white throne judgment. That's for those who have continuously to their last breath said no to Jesus. They're the only ones. But anyone, whether you've been a Christian for ten minutes or fifty years, when you've said yes to Jesus, you've made him the Lord of your life, your name is written in the Lamb's book of life. But every believer will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. And sometimes we think judgment, oh yikes, but it's not about that. Paul's writing to the church in Corinth, which is a great Grecian city, Olympic games, and the Bema seat is a place for rewards. It's not a place for the kind of judgment we understand. When Paul wrote this to the Corinthians, they pictured it. They knew exactly what he was talking about. But it means that every single one of us gets to decide that's why how we live eternally is impacted by how we live now. Because if we will use our lives to bring people closer to Jesus, to just show up. Chuck Swindoll said to me, "Sheila, the key to ministry is show up." Then when we stand before Christ and he'll show us what our life looked like. It says that for some of us, it will burn away just like wood, hay and stubble. Does it mean you don't go into heaven? No, absolutely you go into heaven because you've trusted Christ. That's all you need, judged by the last thing Jesus did, not the last thing you did. But for some, what they will discover at their feet are precious jewels. And what do you do with them? You put them in a crown and you throw them at his feet. I don't want to stand empty handed before Jesus. I want to know that I'm never going to be Beth Moore or Sandi Patty or whoever. But I don't have to. I just have to run in my own lane and be faithful to God.
John Fuller: I so appreciate that perspective, Sheila. That is so important to me. I think the longer I live, the more I see the truth of what you're saying there. You're listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and today some fascinating insights into heaven from Sheila Walsh. And her book is called The Hope of Heaven: How the Promise of Eternity Changes Everything. We've got that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And you know, Sheila, you had mentioned earlier about how wide this narrow gate is that Jesus offers himself to us as. And I'm thinking about the thief on the cross. I just can't forget that man who was nailed there and unable to do anything except just believe. And Jesus gave him the assurance that he would enter heaven. It's so beautiful and so simple. What have you seen in that passage?
Sheila Walsh: I just think it's one of the most remarkable things. All he did was recognize. His eyes were open and he recognized. And can you imagine? You're about to take your final breaths. You're being executed and you're being executed beside the only person in human history who could help you. And when he recognizes that and acknowledges Jesus, Jesus says, "Today I tell you, you will be with me in paradise." He didn't say, "Now, are you going to join a synagogue? Have you read the Torah?" He asked nothing about his life. He simply says, "The fact that you've cried out and you recognize me, you will be with me in paradise." What a gift. That's so good. You tell the story of Florence Chadwick. I love when you say it because you have that great accent. But how does keeping our focus on heaven change the way we run the race here on earth?
Sheila Walsh: She was an amazing woman. She was an incredible swimmer. She was the first woman to ever swim across the English Channel and back.
John Fuller: That's why I remember her name. I knew the name, but I didn't know the story. She was that woman.
Sheila Walsh: She was that woman. But what she wanted to do was she wanted to, when I lived in California, I would see this, she wanted to swim from Catalina Island to the mainland. And she'd practiced a lot and eventually she gets in the water with her coach and her mom in a boat and begins to swim. And she's maybe, I don't know, eighteen hours into it, but this huge dense fog comes down. And she says to her coach, "I'm done. I can't do this." And they're like, "Come on, come on, you can do it. You can do it." And she said, "No, I'm done." And so they bring her into the boat and she realizes she was less than a mile to the shore. And what she said was, "If I could just have seen the shore, I know I would have made it." And I think that's a thing for us as believers. If we just keep our eyes on the shore, then we can finish this race.
Jim Daly: This might sound odd, Sheila, but in that pursuit, why are we so blinded to our mortality? I mean, you don't think about it, especially young people, 20s, 30-somethings, I'll live until I'm 80 or 90. But even those 50s, 60s, 70-somethings, it's not present. We might think about it in terms of what we got to do, what we need to prepare for, but to your point, it's not like looking at the shore of heaven. We don't really contemplate our last day, our last breath. And we're all going to face it. Nobody gets away from that. So how do we do that? How do we put down this life, set it aside for a minute to look at the shore of heaven?
Sheila Walsh: I think realistically we don't live that way every day. We don't live every single day thinking, well, if this was the last day of my life, what would I do and how would I live it? But I think it's this deeper understanding. It's like this foundation stone of knowing. Like for example, one of the things I talk to my son about a lot is we need to celebrate every door that God closes. We need to celebrate as much as every door that God opens. I wanted Christian to get into SMU for his graduate work and I knew a couple of the professors. So I talked to a couple of the professors, tried to do my mother thing, so ridiculous. And he didn't get in. He got into UNT Dallas. It turned out to be the perfect thing for him. It couldn't have been better. So I think it's like inviting God into every moment. To celebrate the disappointments or to learn to say, "Yeah, thank you God, you closed that door. I don't know why you closed it, but thank you that you closed it. And now I look forward to where you're going to open."
Jim Daly: I'm going to give you a whiplash question here, but that whole example catches my attention. The mom that is trying to be the Holy Spirit. And I don't mean that negatively. Dads can do it too. But I'm just saying that it's like what you perceive to be healthy manipulation. I want to create a good environment. I want my child to go to the best school where they'll have a spiritual framework. I'll connect them with my friends. You can put that into any context, sports for your kid, whatever. Where do we draw that line to understand as a parent that God has a path for this child? That when our children hit a valley, it will be good to be present but to allow that child to go through the valley. Because we, and I do it too, I am guilty of this, we want to pluck that child out of the valley in their 20s so that they don't feel pain. They don't have to experience something we experienced as a 20-something, as an 18-year-old. How that is such a hard balance in parenting to say, "Lord, what is your wisdom in this?"
Sheila Walsh: I think that's when we spend more time on our knees than opening our mouth. I remember when Christian was at he went to Texas A&M for his undergrad work. And he went through I had taken him with me on many of my trips, like I was speaking over at Hillsong in Australia and I took him. Ravi Zacharias, when I was doing a thing with Ravi, I took Christian with me. And then you hear all these devastating stories of people who fall and things. And he went through a period of being really disillusioned. And he said to me, "You know what, Mom, I'm not going to church at the moment." And I'm like, "Okay, I understand that. Just don't give up on Jesus." So then I move into a different mode. I move into prayer mode. Even when he had a girlfriend that we knew was a disaster, but I know him well enough to know if we'd said anything, we'd just have pushed him closer. So my husband and I committed, we fasted and prayed one day a week for months and literally prayed her out of his life. I think it's like allowing our children to hurt is very difficult. But if you don't allow them to hurt, they never learn how to stand on their own.
Jim Daly: And it feels schizophrenic. You know, because you want to jump in, you don't, and that is one of the hardest balancing points for Christian parents particularly. How much suffering do I allow before I intervene? And you better go to the Lord, because I don't know that we have enough wisdom to understand without God's guidance where that line is. You don't want them to suffer like going to jail, you want to do what you can to fight the DUI and be helpful to them. But there is life lessons in a lot of those bad situations.
Sheila Walsh: I think we do everything we can, but then we understand that there's going to be and to me it's like when they hit Christian did something in high school that was really stupid and it could have they could have kicked him out of school. And it was it was devastating for him. And I remember, to me, the greatest thing I could do at that point was just walk beside him. Because I wanted to make it all all right and I couldn't. I had to kind of let go and just let things fall where they would. But at that point to let our kids know that we don't love you any less. That you're not a bad person. You maybe did a bad thing, you are not a bad person. That's a totally different thing.
Jim Daly: Especially a teen or young 20-something. I mean, they're coming into their own. They're learning wisdom and if we're honest, I think we all did stupid things. Not just Christian. So pat him on the back for me. Sheila, speaking of people making poor choices, you included an interesting story about a man that Czar Nicholas of Russia encountered. What happened and what did it teach you about God's heart for each of us?
Sheila Walsh: I think there's so many beautiful pictures throughout history showing us, pointed to Christ, to what he did. But I read the story I love Russian literature. I really love to read all the great Russian writers. But I read this one story about Czar Nicholas that one night he was walking around the army barracks with the Russian soldiers and there was a light on in this one particular office. And he knew that was where the guy who does his all the financial stuff was. And so he decided just to pop in and say hello. But the guy was actually asleep with his head on the table with a gun beside him and a suicide note. And it was because he had abused his position. He had used the money in ways he shouldn't have and there was absolutely no way he could repay it and get himself out of trouble in time. He knew he was about to be discovered. And so he wrote this letter apologizing for what he'd done and saying, "There is no one, there is no one who can pay my debt." And when Nicholas saw it, he was furious. He was going to make sure, but he knew this boy's dad. They had a relationship. And there was something about his angst and the fact he'd written the note. And so what he did was he didn't wake the boy, but he took a pen and he wrote on the bottom of it, "Yes there is, Czar Nicholas." He paid the debt himself. And I think that is what Jesus does. We can look at our lives and think, there's no way I'm going to get forgiven for this. I get the privilege a lot of going into different prisons and spent time recently with three guys who are lifers. But they've found hope in Christ in that place. So I think that when you understand, no matter how you come into Jesus right now, he writes at the bottom of your story, "Paid in full."
Jim Daly: So often in this life, we lean into the creature comforts. I mean, it's nice to go into a home that's warm and cozy in the winter and nice and air-conditioned in the summer and to have cool drinks and a barbecue out back we can have a little July 4th party. The picture I'm trying to paint is just this idea of comfort over service, over what God commands. And I don't think he wants us to be uncomfortable. I don't think he wants us, and we live in a wonderful country where even think of Focus, where donors support this ministry. And you know some of the same people I know probably because they support you as well as Focus. And you know, we're doing all we can. But these people have built up businesses, they do well and speak to that attitude that we should have as believers that are on fire for the Lord, who can manage that. A lot of the people I know give a lot of it away. I mean, that's amazing. Hobby Lobby, think of the Green family. Fifty percent of what they make at Hobby Lobby they give away every year. Fifty percent. I mean, that makes me want to go shop there and I'm not looking for a knickknack. But speak to that comfort over doing spiritual disciplines even better.
Sheila Walsh: I think I find myself fascinated when Paul talks about the fact that he's learned in whatever situation he finds himself in to be content. When he has a lot, he experiences the joy of Christ in that. When he has very little, he experiences the joy of Christ in that. And I think that's it. Focus on the Family is one of the most phenomenal ministries available in this nation. And the fact that people get behind this ministry and support it is wonderful. When God has placed things in our hands that we're able to then encourage other people and build up other ministries, we should do that. But when you find yourself I remember after my time in the psychiatric hospital, we I my house was sold and I literally moved into a little apartment with two white plastic chairs from Walmart. And I remember sitting there, all I'd taken with me were my books. And I'd lived in a beautiful fancy house on the ocean. And now here I was in this little and I thought, you know what, Lord, the one thing that's not changed is you. You're here. And so I just think wherever you find yourself in life, use everything God has given you to bless others.
John Fuller: Sheila, this has been so good. And right here at the end, Pastor John Harper. He really understood heaven and it had a powerful impact on his ministry. But let me ask you, who was Pastor John Harper?
Sheila Walsh: I think I love him because he was a Scottish pastor. He'd lost his wife and he had one daughter. But he was invited to preach at Chicago at Moody Bible Church, which was a huge honor for somebody who's from a small Scottish church. So he gets on the boat with his sister and his daughter and the ship is the Titanic. And when the ship hits the iceberg and he makes sure that his sister and his daughter get into one of the lifeboats. And then he's given a life jacket, but there's no boats left and he ends up in the water. But he's so committed, he so understands the fact that the minute you take your last breath on this earth, you take your first breath with the presence of the Lord. So he comes across another man in the water who doesn't have a life jacket and he says to him, "Do you know Jesus?" And the man said, "No, I don't." So he gives him this really simple basic plan of salvation. Then he takes off his life jacket and he gives it to this man. And John Harper disappears under the water. Five years later in Chicago, there's a meeting of all of those who survived the Titanic. And that man stood up and said, "I was John Harper's last convert." Because he knew he didn't need that life jacket, he knew where he was going and he knew I didn't. And I prayed the prayer that night in the water.
Jim Daly: Such a powerful story and the irony is we're all on the Titanic. We are. We just don't know it. It's going down and we're all going to have that last breath. We're all going to go underwater. And man, what a great attitude. Can I just reach one more person? I love that illustration. Thank you for being with us. This has been delightful.
Sheila Walsh: I've loved it. Thank you so much for having me.
John Fuller: Well, Sheila is such an amazing storyteller and such a good person. You just feel it, and I've spent a little bit of time with her and her husband. They're wonderful people. Her book, The Hope of Heaven, is a must-read. It's packed with stories, biblical insights, and Sheila doesn't pull any punches about the hard questions. If you're feeling like, "Yeah, I'm that guy sinking with the Titanic," get a hold of us. We're here to help you. There's no excuse. Call the number. We have caring Christian counselors that can help you. That's why we're here. And if you want to be part of the ministry of Focus on the Family to help more people, to be like Pastor John Harper and to get in the water with those who are drowning needing to hear the good news of the gospel, consider partnering with Focus on the Family. If you could do it monthly, that really helps, and a one-time gift is also great. For a gift of any amount, we'll send you a copy of Sheila's book, The Hope of Heaven, as our way of saying thank you for being in the ministry with us. And I will also say now is a fantastic time to become a monthly donor. For a gift of just $30 a month, we're offering a special Focus on the Family mug, the ones we use here in the studio, along with a four-ounce bag of whole bean coffee. And we call that Jim's Choice. It's really good. Plus you get Sheila's great book, but you have to contact us by the end of July, and that's coming really soon, like tomorrow. It's not too late, though. You can make a tremendous impact when you support Focus on the Family. And we hear from people like Brenda from Texas, who said, "In the early years of your ministry, my church used to share your resources with me as a young mother. God used those resources to help me navigate becoming a new mom and a new wife. Focus on the Family ministered deeply to me during that season." "Right before I had my second child, my husband told me he was going to leave me, but God held on to me and carried me through that difficult time. Throughout the years, God has sustained our marriage through your resources and your broadcasts and teachings truly kept me going during the hardest moments. Many times while driving, I would hear your broadcasts and God used them to strengthen and encourage me." What a powerful testimony. And it's your generous donations that put godly resources into Brenda's life and her marriage. And it's your monthly donations that help keep our Christian counselors on the phone lines and our broadcasts on the air. They help a mom choose life for her baby and help marriages stay together. And we do this all just one person at a time, trying to make a difference. Join the team today and donate, get your copy of The Hope of Heaven, and take advantage of this limited-time offer for coffee and a mug. Our phone number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY, or you can donate and get resources and the coffee and the mug at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And we've got an entire audio collection devoted to this topic of heaven. It will encourage you, it'll offer great perspective. It's free, and you can access the Remembering the Hope of Heaven collection, which features John Burke, Pam Farrel, John Trent, and of course others. It's available to you when you sign up on our website. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.